Died in the arse - arggg

[melbxs]

Well, got 300 kms from home before the problem showed up again .....

Problem has manifested itself intermittently. Usually at low speed and usually while turning a right hand corner (once when turning a left). Bike dies completely (no coughing and spluttering). All lights remain lit, but zero spark. Spark will still fire when I turn off the ignition - creating a nice backfire at times. If I have the ignition on and a plug hanging from an HT lead I get a spark jumping to the block about once every minute or two - IS THIS NORMAL?

I have tested the resistance at the 4 pin TCI plug (750+ ohms) and at the 5 pin plug behind the fuse box (750+ ohms), but I have been so far unable to test this at failure. I have tweaked and teased the pickup coil wires and was completely unable to recreate the problem. Currently the bike runs perfectly and I cannot for the life of me recreate the problem.

I have cleaned up every contact on the loom and all the ground points, but TBH they all looked good (fairweather biker  :kiss: )

At first I found that snugging connections up inside the headlight was a fix for the problem but I now think this may have been a red herring and simply stopping the bike for 4 or 5 mins was enough to get it going again.  I have since been through all the connections in headlight and none of them seem to affect the spark at all - except of course the ignition key.

I have checked the tipover switch. Even opened it up and it is clean as a whistle and works as expected. I have a spade fusebox fitted.


Only things I have done recently is:

Rebuilt and refitted the carbs.

Installed new horns.  http://xs1100.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=895.0   This involved running a feed of the battery through a dedicated fuse to a relay and an earth off the frame to the horns - see the thread for details and pics.


Would greatly appreciate any ideas before I ride 300 kms home.  :tongue:

[melbxs]

Every connector on the bike has had a good clean so there's upside to the experience, I suppose. 

[Eveready1100]

That's good news Brian. Those fekkin bullet connectors were the reason for a total harness change on mine after a series of glitches like you've experienced. The last straw was went it died twice while traversing Mt. Mee at night with my son riding shotgun. haven't looked back since fixing it properly, though I've been over that mountain heaps since then.

[petejw1966]

glad u got it all sorted out,
electrical problems can be a pain at the best of times.

[melbxs]

Just about topped meself with anguish last night.

I'd convinced myself that I'd found the problem in the killswitch wires. I'd checked the continuity of the wires with a meter and on one I found that I had an intermittent disconnect if I turned the bars. I could also recreate the problem quite consistently by turning the bars one way or the other. Wire must be broken internally.

Cut and joined the wires behind the connector under the tank. Started it up, wggled the bars - instant death. Cue cursing and swearing like only a Scotsman knows how.

Went back to it today and started waggling connectors and tugging at wires, nothing.

Ignition lights were on and I accidentally flicked the indicator on. Front right didn't come on, back right did. Thought - that's odd - surely a blown bulb couldn't cause this hassle. Opened the indicator up, all looked good, back along the wires into the headlamp - fekkin bullet connector has popped out and when you have the indicator on it is shorting against the headlamp shell.

Halle fekkin looyah.

Those bullet connectors in the headlamp might get replaced with a proper locking connector sometime soon. 

Dodgy wire in the killswitch was fine and intermittent break must just have been me trying to do 3 things at once that made it seem like I found a problem.  Have to rewire that sometime now.


Thanks for the ideas and the consensus that it was elektrickery involved. Thank gawd it's fixed. Had a weekend away planned.

[Stout]

Excellent! Finding the problem is a very important pre-condition for fixing it!

FWIW, my bike has had both problems - the broken wire thing and a dicky kill switch. I bypassed the kill switch in the first week I had the bike (2004-ish) due to problems with all those connectors I mentioned. When I finally hooked in and repaired the whole loom late last year, I was miffed to find I would then get a dead cut if I so much as bumped or rested the side of my thumb against the kill switch. It turns out both these things happen quite a bit when wrestling an outfit around - who knew? I stripped, cleaned and re-lubed the switch one evening in the garage and all has been good since. I think I also have a latent problem with a long-ago bypassed side stand switch - one day when I washed the bike, it started fine but would cut out when I clicked it into gear. Couldn't find the old sidestand switch wiring, so just had to wait for it to dry out.

A couple of weekends ago, I had a bloke on a club ride telling me about an XS11 he used to own. He described an identical problem to yours (and mine) that he was never able to find. When I told him about the kill switch and possible wire break, he spat & cursed because he eventually sold the bike because of it. He also told me that he wasn't surprised, since all the looms for the XS's were made too short and that rather than have them remade, the factory had a special 'loom-strecthing machine' built and that all XS looms had been stretched about 100mm to fit the frame. Not sure if there is any truth in it - this guy is full of these kinds of stories about all kinds of bikes - but XSs certainly seem to have their share of loom problems, which are thankfully rare on most bikes (unless somebody has been fornicating with it...)

...and I didn't think you were being dismissive - I was just worried I had made it sound like a bigger job than it was. After the ignition switch and kill switch (and wiring leading to them) the igntion source / trigger coil is the next most likely cause of a dead cut. As I mentioned originally, I've had them fail before in such a way that they would start fine, then stop as soon as the source coil got hot and went open circuit.

[melbxs]

Stout - I didn't mean to sound like I was dismissive of your suggestion earlier. I had only just ripped down the carbs and I wasn't too keen to go immediately looking in the opposite direction for a newly acquired problem. The two areas I had dabbled with were carbs and kill switch so I was keen to nut them out before meddling elsewhere. Clots like me create a second problem then it gets even harder to fix.

I couldn't recreate the kill switch, so it was probably the carbs - which, of course it wasnt. 

It seems to be a break in one of the wires to the kill switch exactly as you say above. With the tank off I was able to twist and pull on the wires in the loom you mention and recreate the problem - no spark whatsoever. Another twist and it comes back with all plugs firing.

Will get stuck into it tonight.

Many thanks for all the opinions and ideas - definitely a huge help.

[Stout]

It is possible the loom from the RH switch block has a break in one of the two wires going to the kill switch, where they constantly get bent back and forth at the headstem. My bike had this problem, but then the loom had been completely cut and reconnected at the headstem with those stupid cheapo bullet connectors. I've always assumed this was somebody's hack at fixing a hidden break in one or more of the wires.

It would be easy to test this possibility, though not quite as easy as my last suggestion, which most certainly didn't require ripping the eletrical guts out of the bike. Anyway...

If you remove the tank, on the RHS of the frame (more or less above the coils) you will find a connector in the loom from the RH switchblock, just before it disappears into the main loom. That would be a good spot to bridge the two kill switch wires. Cover with insulation tape so it can't touch the tank or frame and blow your main fuse, then put tank back on and go for a test ride.

[melbxs]

[quote/]
What's at the bottom of the road, Brian? Were you turning at the time it cut out or running straight ? Could be what John alluded to with a connector pulling when turning the bars.
That pop when you flicked the kill switch must have been the ignition system re-energising as the motor wouldn't have been hot enough to cause self combustion like you may sometimes get after a long ride
[/quote]


Starter doesn't turn if the kill switch is engaged, so it can't be that can it?

I was turning a corner each time, both right handers too. Will check that out.

Coils are 2 yr old Dynas and as PGNZ says, not going to blow 2 at once you'd think. Also the bike was warm, but not red hot at that stage. I was only 300m from home both times.

Gonna get out there later and have a look. Got back late from work tonight.

[pgnz]

stifled tank vent pinhole?   Fuel eventually drains back to the carbs after a while.  Dodgy coils die when they get hot then come back to life when cooler,  but too much of co-incidence for that to happen to both coils at once.   Dodgy coil connection?

[Eveready1100]

Well after a stellar rideout of about 30km on Friday I go out today and 200m down the road the bike dies completely and wont start again. Was running a treat until I got to the bottom of the road. Wasn't a spluttering stop, just a complete instant death.

What's at the bottom of the road, Brian? Were you turning at the time it cut out or running straight ? Could be what John alluded to with a connector pulling when turning the bars.
That pop when you flicked the kill switch must have been the ignition system re-energising as the motor wouldn't have been hot enough to cause self combustion like you may sometimes get after a long ride

[bluedayt]

Sounds electrical to me too. Start with re-checking what you took off to work on the starter button and the immediate area. It could be as simple as a loom plug got pulled out but still making connection until you get going.

[excess.11]

Some models of the xs1100 had a kill switch circuit connected thru the sidestand i believe, to stop you starting the bike when the sidestand was down.........if it has been removed if it had one............check the connectons where it has been bridged out.

[excess.11]

The time to test for the fault , is when it won t run...........The quickest way  to find  if it is........electrical or fuel..is to check for power to the coils and for spark at all plugs while cranking when it won t start and the fault is present.If it starts.......take it for a run with a spare plug with you.When it stops....remove the spark cap and test external to the motor with the spare plug for spark on all leads.If you get it home and the problem is there..remove and reverse the tank so you can start it and check for power to the coils primary connections while cranking.

[melbxs]

I'm loathed to rip the electrical guts out of the bike until I am positive it isn't the newly set-up carbs to blame. I am 99% positive that it's not the kill switch and I am pretty sure it never was the problem as it was pretty clean and looked/tested fine.

Could be that it's way lean and it does when warmed up?

Gonna richen things up a bit tomorrow and see how it goes.