Author Topic: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!  (Read 4005 times)

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Offline tripodtiger

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2012, 10:36:03 AM »
Countersteering 101...........

Motorcycles are NOT dangerous!  Mistakes made by riders and drivers are potentially dangerous

On Road tutorial...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=kTsKlVTftO8

"You will not be able to ride a motorcycle if you don't understand countersteering"  What a load of clap trap

Safety Course Tutorial..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=iLXE7vtrKZY


Firstly, I've not taken the time to watch all of these videos.
The Japanese police video doesn't show any counter steering.  Don't get me wrong, counter steering is occuring to initiate any turn made.  But you can't see it.  What you can see is counter weighting - 'bike in / body out'.

The thing that really pissed me off about the 2nd video was the comment at the end, as you may gues from my comment above.
The video producers have attmepted to make themselves sound highly educated by their spiffy little drawings about gravity, centripetal & centrifugal force.  What a waste of time.  The video from head on is good.  But you don't need to worry about gravity etc.  What is relevant to gravity is balancing forces, to complete the turn.  To INITIATE the turn, you have to unbalance the bike, destablilise it in a very controlled way.

I got the shits with the last two. Has this bloke never heard of editing?  He may well have a very good idea, but do I really need to listen to his conversation with the other bloke or watch him stuff up a right hand turn because he can't talk and watch traffic at the same time?

Anyway.  Counter steering is NATURAL on any form of bicycle.  Motorised or not.  Don't know about a unicycle, never even throught about it.

Counter steering is only to INITIATE a turn.  But then again, that isn't exactly correct either.

After a turn is initiated, during the turn it becomes a matter of balancing the forces to maintain the radius of turn & lean angle.

Balance during a turn is only ever momentary, because of changes in the effective angle between the centre line of the bike, compression & extension of the suspension effecting rake and trail, changes in speed, changes due to bump steer etc etc etc.  You need to continually alter the pressure through the handlebars, footpegs, seat and tank to maintain your line.

The reason why gravity is so 'irrelevant' is because it is a constant.  It's not irrelevant in an absoute manner, it's just irrelevant in practical understanding.

Just start with the fact that a bicycle has rake and trail.  It has a contact patch, which is not a point, it has 2 dimensions.  For counter steering, you probably need to consider the mid line of the contacct patch, both longitudinal and lateral.

If there was zero rake and trail, the contact patch would include a pivot point.  The drag of the tyre would be radially around that point.  The smaller the tyre dimensions, the smaller the contact patch and the less drag created around the pivot.

Tyres and wheels are not infintisimally narrow.  they have 3 dimensions. Firstly the lateral section. When the longitudinal angle changes (as with lean), the lateral midline of the contact patch will move left and right.  If you look at a clock face, you could think of the tyre, when vertical, as having the midline of the contact patch at 6 o'clock.  As the wheel & tyre lean to the right, the midline moves over towards 5 o'clock (my perspective is from behind the wheel) .  Lean to the left and the midline of the contact patch rolls around towards 7 o'clock.

Now the longitudinal section. Due to rake and trail (castor angles) the midline of this contact patch moves towards the rear, as the tyre/wheel leans left or right.  As the tyre wheel comes back to vertical, the longitudinal midline moves back to the position directly beneath the pivot of teh wheel (the axle).

The third dimension, plan (ywa?) needs to be looked at to combine the effect of leaning on the two other dimension.  Counter steering is shifting the contact patch, by weight through the handlebars, so that the entire motor cycle starts to fall in the desired direction.  The pressure on the inside handlebar, moves the contact patch rearwards and to the side that the turn is desired.  The bike will start to fall in that direction.

Counter steering can be done quickly, with a shove on the inside 'bar to create a sudden change of path.  This is best accomplished with a simultaneous, sudden shutting of the throttle, to increase the rake and decrease the trail, as the bike rolls forward around it's pitch axis.  ie compresses the front suspension.  This is what you should be doing if you need to swerve.

Couunter steering can be done, slowly.  Easy pressure to commence that perfect sweeper.

What happens after you initiate the turn is then subject to ALL of the changes in force effecting the motorcycle & rider that are occuring instantaneously and progressively.


These are Australian videos and pretty bloody good.  Not perfect, but then very little is. At least they clearly understand editing!  One gives a really good practice exercise for counter steering.
http://www.mccofnsw.org.au/a/332.html


Counter weight is related to steering, as is counter steering.  You should be using both.  Counter weight is a much more deliberate technique.



Invest in yourself.  Go an do an advanced course.  One that deals with road craft.  hw much moeny do you spend on your bike?  On the bling and stuff that goes into it?  How much do you invest in your own skill and technique?

Collisions hapen because people make mistakes.  My basic principle in riding - on the road - has been to attempt to limit the number of mistakes I make and avoid being involved in someone else's mistake.

If everyone else followed all the rules, and were all competent, we wouldn't have anywhere near the number of coppers, firies, ambos, doctors, nurses, hospitals, panel beaters and spray painters, parts inbterpreters, solicitors, magistrates or insurance companies.

It's one thing to complain that we are invisible or that drviers are out to get us and another thing to realise that that is really a cop out and that it's up to ourselves to protect ourselves.  Sorry if that gets up anyone's nose, but I reckon it's true.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:43:41 AM by rideaway ray »
cheers

rayb

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73 RD250. 80 XS11. 77 RD400.  81 RD350LC. 96 Triumph Tiger & sidecar. And a W800 that I steal from the missus sometimes!

Offline steptoe

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 10:36:44 PM »
gotta agree with you there 8)

Offline excess.11

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2012, 09:25:43 AM »
As was mentioned through some of the vids...........most people  jump on a bike and slowly get the hang of the balance and weight and just head off riding whilst gradually gaining confidence, slowly increasing their learning curve on what the bike can and can not do...along the way with advice from some well meaning people or friends, books, magazines etc.  at the same time subconciously using the countersteering technique without even knowing they were doing it.
It s when you consiously  engage this that the fun begins...........
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 04:18:30 PM by excess.11 »

Offline ken008

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 10:20:26 AM »
gday step, as far as style goes when i rode out bush it was on road bikes on dirt roads mainly on the relly's cattle farm, i was tought nothing at all except i was shown how to start it so i guess it was my own style,no internet 30 odd years ago, only fell off a couple of times trying to do wheelies.the bikes i rode were cb100 , some sort of honda 400 from memory and a dt175.  on another point ,you watch those U tube videos and see all the comments and what ive found  more often than not is people disagree with each other about this countersteering.  that japanese police riding video is incredible,  i thought i was doing fairly good by being able to do a U turn in about 5 metres

Offline excess.11

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 07:25:43 AM »
Countersteering 101...........

On Road tutorial...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=kTsKlVTftO8
Safety Course Tutorial..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=iLXE7vtrKZY
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 07:54:39 AM by excess.11 »

Offline steptoe

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 10:29:11 PM »
it,s good to see your having fun with this style, what style have you been used to riding with?,,

I have always used the counter steering until veiwing this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ-pTyQZJng&feature=endscreen&NR=1

from then I started on round abouts slowly, to today where I,ve combined counter steering with steering,, by that, what usually happens now is coming into a corner I counter steer to start laying the bike over, once it 's leaning I then steer into the corner, where the bike falls into the centre of the corner then counter steer to stand the bike up again, might sound strange but it works well for me, {I don,t shift my wieght all over the bike}

Offline ken008

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 01:37:35 PM »
gday, it was a intermediate course held by ride smart on the northside of brissy a couple of years ago, i had ridden off road a fair bit as a teenager and now the kids are older decided to get a road bike and took the course,i didnt really under stand countersteering much at all after i googled it or people tried to explain it to me but i have to say the course made it easy, they also have an advanced course and i think its around 250 for around 6 or 7 hours, i might take this when i get my bigger bike, either the XS1100 or XJR1300. actually i rarely use countersteering now (agressively anyway) because after some near misses you sort of ride pretty defensively, but sometimes i might go into a corner ( one that im familiar with) a little harder than what someone of my capabilies should just to keep it fresh ,im no means a casey stoner so my going into a corner a little hot might be slowing some of you other guys up.

Offline excess.11

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 11:14:30 AM »
Well done you ........more so that you are still around to tell the tale. ;D
What was the course you took ,where was it held and what was the cost ?.......
I m estimating as you put what you learnt to such good use...... it was "PRICELESS". ;D ;)

Offline ken008

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Re: Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 10:50:39 AM »
only a couple of months ago i was 20 yards or so behind a car only doing about 50-60 k's and the P Plater put on her right hand indicator and as i looked ahead i seen no oncoming traffic so assumed she was turning into the street, as she slowed i estimated where she would be and we i would be so i could go around her on the left, anyway instead of turning right she aggressively turned left towards the gutter, i countersteered left then right and squeezed through with only inches to spare in the gutter, i wouldn't have been able to do it without countersteering (did a course), it reinforced the theory that everyone in a car is out to get you and your invisible, Ive needed to rely on countersteering a couple of times and i bet everyone has plenty of stories about this.

Offline excess.11

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Countersteering.........it s a hoot!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 08:59:44 AM »