XS1100 AUSTRALIA
XS1100 Topics => XS Related Stories => Topic started by: essjay on July 02, 2010, 04:06:27 PM
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Howdy. Im new here. But this is probably the correct place to post my XStory.
Long time rider, i needed cheap, reliable transport, capable or running me 200+ kms some days, or just around the corner other days. When an XS1100 cropped up cheap, i went out to have a look, made an offer, and intended to ride the 100kms home. Previous owner had advertised and again told me in the flesh the engine had just been rebuilt, needs some fine tuning but runs sweet, good reliable bike he says. Well. 500m down the road, number 3 spark plug brushes my leg as it makes a desperate leap towards the sidewalk, and the engine growls in anger and is determined to stop and retrieve the escapee. So the bike went back to PO's house and i trailer her home the next evening. Fit a thread insert to the stripped plug hole, all is good. Riding a measly 20kms to work, a rattle begins. To me, sounded like a timing chain rattle - pull over, let her cool a while, carry on - noise gone. Made it to work, only just. Riding home not so lucky. The rattle came back, and then got MUCH MUCH WORSE so i pulled over and killed the engine.
Checked what i could again, until i became brave and thumbed the starter button - "THUNK"
Engine is locked solid. Not going anywhere. A very annoyed wife drove me home while the bike hid behind some convenient bushes, and i had to hire a trailer for the 2nd time to trailer her home.
Removing the spark plugs and looking down the holes while turning the engine by hand confirmed my fears - Piston not moving with the rest of them.
To summarise, the previous owner had left a rod cap nut loose - and on further investigation, countless other bolts loose on the bike. Including brakes. Anyhow - engine. So the end cap as worked its way loose, and dropped into the sump. The rod has decided that looks fun and it will follow. The crank continued to come around and smack into the side of the rod, sending the rod through the bottom of the cylinder liner. Could have been a lot worse than it was, but as it is now i have to split the case to fit bearings and get the rod bolted back together. And I need one cylinder liner, but after a long search i have found a second hand set of jugs with pistons and rods, so $200 later I am back in business.
It has allowed me to paint the frame while its apart, inspect and service a few other items, etc etc. Everything happens for a reason, perhaps if the engine hadnt let go, the loose caliper bolts would have. Who knows.
Some interesting things to come for this bike, one of them being that now i have a spare set of jugs for her, i have spoken to some engineers and machine shops, and comparing many car and motorbike parts. It looks very muchly like i can fit some off the shelf liners from a suzuki or kawasaki, and some suzuki car pistons and rings, and come out of it with about a 1288cc machine. Can get liners made up to any specs, $150 for the first one and $30 for each liner after that, so with some used or some common engine parts it could be a very cheap upgrade. Will post all the details once i have a working prototype.
Anyhow that is my story for the moment, there is much more to it but i wouldnt want to bore anybody, you dont need to hear how easily the engine came apart with a few sockets and a 1/4 drive ratchet from bunnings, or how he nicely lined all the ring gaps up on the pistons so it would be nice a pretty...
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I hope he hasn't advertised that "Insanity Customs" to far and wide then,,,,,, what a goose, :-X :-X
don't spose you'll get any portion of your money back then :o :o
I left a bit of info on your other post
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mate - that is a tale of woe.......one never knows when its a lemon - onward and upward from here -
to make light of the situation though...................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5MBHO2oEfM
:(
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I shall assume that is a hilarious clip for those with sound, i have no speakers on this computer, shall check it out at home over the weekend.
The plus side of the situation is that the wife has no argument at all to me fixing/modifying the bike now mwahahahahaaa. "But honey, it needs new liners and bigger pistons and rings just to get it back on the road, otherwise its a complete waste..." hehehe
Plus I enjoy a project
Plus wife is interested in bikes finally
Pus i will know who built the engine and the quality of workmanship when i am finished
Not a complete waste. No didnt get any money back from them, i didnt ask for it either. At the $800 i paid, licence and complete, was worth it in my book, but then i have a habit of looking at a rotting pile of rust and seeing a sparkling gem from yesteryear hehe
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and at the end of it you'll sit and look at it in the shed and be more than satisfied,,
and the next bike show you enter and THAT will happen some one will make a half smart comment,,you'll able to say no I didn't buy it,, I built that by my hand from scratch, with a tear of pride building
and that my friend will be worth more than any trophy they'll give out 8) 8)
http://steptoexs11.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=43999990
I thought of it,, I designed it,, I built it,, and I BLOODY WELL RODE IT ;) ;) {it's now back to a solo}
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Well said Steptoe. :)
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Definately well said, and that is always how I do things. I will never build a car or bike with a credit card, i would always rather use my own two hands. Really like your bike steptoe, liking the sidecar and the trailer too, been looking into building something similar for when she is ready, would both be very useful to have around. Did you make your trailer and sidecar? Or adapt them to the bike? would love to see more photos, been through your website looking at them all :)
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Hey SJ sounds like you've got something there to keep you busy and out of trouble, 1288cc would be an interesting little project too, wonder how the car pistons would suit a bikes hi-revving nature where 5000- 9000 revs isn't uncommon on a good hit-out, car pistons may be a bit too clunky/heavy for real good response, XS11 conrods would be fine because they're real tough buggers, you'd need to doctor a suitable head gasket too, but she'd likely be a torquey old tart if it all fitted up
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Piston velocity wouldn't be that far increased though, it isnt all determined by RPM alone, if my calculations are correct they should be more than up to it. And i make all my head gaskets anyway, i love all the old school methods and tips and tricks, plus keeps me from waiting for parts to come in. So shouldnt be an issue :p
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I would love to see this project happen. There would be some serious global interest.
One of the guys in the UK has a lot of knowledge about pistons, sizes, etc. He may be worth talking to once you have a good idea of what you want to do.
You do realise that you've set some expectations here... ;D
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Yeah it's a world wide audience following every move now SJ, so no pressure.. heheh
likely with the car pistons they'll be from a longer stroke engine so their velocity in the 68mm stroke XS11 engine would actually be slower than in the car engine at the same given revs, depends on their weight on how quick or high they'd rev up in the bike, a bare XS11 piston with it's 2 compression and 1 oil ring weighs 8 ounces, if the car piston was close to that then you'd think they'd be fine, although they'd be from a water-cooled engine, the air-cooled bike engine is running a hell of a lot hotter with lots of variations and shifts in temperature, could be a factor in the long term reliability of the car pistons in the bike engine
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Haha so no pressure, great :P Thats OK, glad there is interest because when i get the liners made up the more there are the cheaper they work out to be. Well as far as project phoenix, i picked up the second hand jugs and pistons today, in a lot better condition than what came out of her so all well there, gets me riding for now.
As for the new bar im setting here lol,
Have a spare set now to play with, so will throw it in the oven next time wife goes shopping, and drop the parts into the engineers to spin me up some new jugs. im looking for a 2nd hand bombed motor to get the pistons out of to play with, though it may be nearly as cheap to buy new ones. I want to do this for under $500, and it should be doable, though it will probably be a bit more for those who don't have access to a cylinder hone, or a mill, or to make the head gaskets. Trying to use an off the shelf combination, or better still a cheap ($50) engine from the wreckers, as a parts source, so the majority of the work is bolt in bolt out, and the other big plus is your local parts shop can sell pistons, rings, oversizes, forged performance items etc etc. Definately using the yamaha rods, but when it comes to cars 17mm wrist pin is not the most common size! But there are enough out there in cars and motorbikes, just the bike pistons are not cheap or easy to find at any wreckers.
When i get the 1288 fired up you can bet i will start another thread and a youtube vid, dont worry you will be the first to know. For now my main aim is to get the bike rolling again, then i can take the engine to bits again lol
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as for setting the bar and the expectations,, ::)
HOW ABOUT THE NEW THREAD ABOUT TO BE PUT UP FOR THOSE OF US WHO LIKE TO KNOCK STUFF UP 8)
:o And i make all my head gaskets anyway, :o
how on earth do you do that at home??
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Good idea, new thread for that stuff :D
As for how i do it, well, that would be one for the new thread would it not? :p
Aluminium and/or copper sheet. Sometimes thin steel sheet. Sometimes just thick gasket material. I have a 125cc honda that has been running for 10,000kms on a nutri-grain box headgasket (low compression ration on the poor old thing though) And 6000 on a sprite can in a yamaha Jog 49cc (got her up to 104km/h - another story again)
The XS will get a few layers of aluminium for now, and probably steel when i increase the capacity.
I dont do them all at home, but for the thin steel, copper and ally sheets, being careful with scissors, a compass, a scribe, razor blades etc works quite well. and chalk dust. and grease. Hmm sounds like a lot when i list them all. Oh and hollow punches.
Anyhow, for cars it is cheaper to just but a top end set, but things for bikes just seem to have a huge premium put on them, which i cannot understand, so i make my own where i can. And boat engines are even more expensive. /end rant.
New on project phoenix: i managed to pick up the new jugs over the weekend, but didnt manage to turn a spanner on the bike. And i have run out of coffee, so a trip to the store on the way home, and then a late night, hoping to split the cases tonight.
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Quick update: Took the engine out of the frame last night at last. With the head and jugs off its not really that heavy to lift out, i was quite surprised. Trans pan off too, "thars gold in them thar hills" well at least chunks of copper, chrome and brass anyhow. And chunks of silicone, dog hair and leaves on the oil pickup screen :O thought i already thought the worst of the PO, it just got a lot lot worse. Chasing down rod bearings now, what a nightmare... Still, silver lining, i can fully and properly paint the frame while it is out, loose some useless items from the bike etc etc. Make her as proper and reliable as possible. Stay positive, stay positive... /end rant.
Will be a great feeling when i stop taking things apart and begin putting them back together now. Might need to do some side projects to keep my morale up, like restoring the gauge faces or polishing some parts up. How was everybody else's weekend?
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stay positive ,, stay positive,,
the motor's out and apart, the only way from here is UP ;D UP :P UP 8)
TAKE YOUR TIME DO IT RIGHT ;)
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All that staying positive iv been doing?
Things managed to get WORSE!
Though i may be able to get out of it relatively OK. The offending rod and bearing, and as a result, crank - Damaged. The rod end cap and to a lesser extent the rod itself, are out of round. Result, she needs a new rod. The wrecker i bought the jugs from has the rest of the engine there, i already have the jugs and pistons from it, he may sell me the rest of the engine reasonably cheap. Mine has a new primary chain and 2nd gear, but it may be worth dismantling the 2nd engine and combining the two engines to make something that can carry me across Australia. A friendly engine shop is confident he can get me rod bearings to suit, this may be my best bet...
Yes, stay positive, go slow, do it properly. Refurbish, replace, upgrade what i can while it is apart, i want another 30 years from this machine.
The Phoenix will rise from the ashes.
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give him,{ your friendly shop} this,, he might be able to work with it
http://www.nwvcp.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/default.aspx
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Thanks for the link, think that is easier to search than the fiche over at http://www.benefiscal.co.uk (http://www.benefiscal.co.uk)
Three Yamaha dealerships today, telling me that nope, no listings for rod bearings, you have to get the whole crank to get the bearings. No thanks.
Calling the wreckers tomorrow to get the rest of the motor, surely that, some gaskets, some bearings matched up, some luck for a change and badabing, im in business again. :D looking very muchly forwards to that day.
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Carsten you might have some parts to help out? if you know where to look......I am sure they are among those parts.... :D
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OK, secured the rest of the spare engine. So i have a whole spare powerplant to play with, minus one rod that is cactus and one cylinder liner, but that is being replaced soon enough. Little later on now that the engine is a bigger drama than initially thought, wishful thinking on my part, but will still get some suzuki pistons in there and new steel liners. Another story, just teasing for now.
So engine on saturday. Til then just sanding, priming and prettying up the tank and some other bits n bobs. Raining heavily now, not much time for working on the bike, with luck it will ease off again soon.
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Woooo Hooo :D:D Scott is one happy camper right now. Ok, Ok, i had to fork over most of the price of the bike to begine with, but i have a spare engine here now, in bits, and have inspected the bottom end and gearbox, all seems pretty sweet. I decided for the moment it looks so sweet and everything turns so smoothly and sweetly i will bolt her together and see if she fires up, and how she rides. Really needing transport right now. Moreover, i am speaking with some of the nice folks in the local Historic Racing club, going to go for a look see at the next race meet, and see if im interested in participating, and what would be allowed in their rules for the bike. She wont be a full race machine but it would be a hoot to blast around the track for fun every now and then. Also i may have volunteered to be a passenger on a sidecar racer, yay, 120kph at 3inches from the ground headfirst, sounds fun!
Anyhow. They say one mans trash is another mans treasure. When i fronted up to take my new used motor home - it went from expensive neccesity to worth every penny.
I now have Kick start. Now some of you are going to say its extra dead weight, some are going to say they are great for breaking legs/hips/knees. But to me, my bike just got the one thing she was missing (aside from running gear that is!)
I like manual cars for many reasons, but bump starting when needed, or driving out of an intersection by cranking it over while in gear (hey, i have old cars ok?!) are two big safety plusses to me.
And having a kick start on my bike is in the same ballpark. So i am stoked!
Been to the newsagent today for some big a2 project poster cardboard, all ready to make a few gaskets up and put the engine back together now. Very excited. Now i just need to figure out how to put the engine back in the frame on my own, hmm... might need to bribe a friend with some beer, why do all the other XSessives have to be in the eastern states?!
If anyone wants to fly over here and give me a hand on reassembly, i promise free board, my wife will cook for you, and all the beer you can drink!
anyone?! :P
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a thing I do when pulling and putting back in is take or leave the sump and oil pump off,,, will give you much needed room,,
a small floor jack comes in handy too :D
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hehe that would have helped, except the filter housing bolt in the new/used motor is rounded off entirely, so i didnt manage to get that off prior to fitting the engine. Oil pickup and pump wouldnt give me that much extra with that sucker still on the front. I managed to get her in with some ratchet strap action, planks of wood and brute force. I used an old trick, tipped the engine on its side and propped it up on wooder boards. then i tipped the frame sideways over the engine and maneuvered the frame and engine until the frame was laying over the engine - not as easy as it sounds with just one person. Then i ran two ratchet straps, one to the frame, arund the front of the motor and then back to the frame, tightened it up til it had some tension on it. Repeat that last step for the back section.
Then i swore a lot and pulled the whole thing back onto its front tyre and centre stand. (rear is still off)
So i wound up with the engine hanging from two ratchet straps high up in the frame. Lowered them bit by bit, allowed me to slip the engine mounts and bolts into place without too much more loud swearing, which im sure the neighbours are sick of by now
Engine is in. (frame barely got a scratch on it, phew) After a good thorough degreasing parts can start to go back on, bringing the head and jugs home from work tonight, not too long to go now before i can ride again ;D
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I admire your ingenuity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but WA isn't that big that you don't live next door{ within 1000 klm } ;D to some one who could help do you :P
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Well i am sure im not the first to think of doing that, nor will i be the last. It got her in there, and gets me one step closer to riding again. Now, my kingdom for some circlip pliers! pistons need to go onto the rods, but no good putting anything more than that on without getting the darn circlips back in place.
Very close to cutting up wifes chopping board and making myself some buttons instead of or as well as the clips.
Or i will play chopsticks with two small flat blade screwdrivers. More cursing involved, sorry neighbors, but it works. And while i appreciate the manuals suggestion to tighten a large hose clamp to compress the rings, while i am on a roll swearing, i will most likely just compress them by hand like i usually do, one at a time. Or borrow the handy dandy motorbike ring compressor from a friend, if i did this on any kind of regular basis i would invest the $40 and buy a set. Getting closer folks anyway, engine prettied up in new paint, gauges and some trim items in new black paint. Tank primered and getting some silver shot on when the weather is agreeable. And the chopping board is in danger, i would only need a few bits... hmm wife is out shopping....
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pressing in with small screwdrivers is all I use,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and wait for a nice click when they're home
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This looks to be a serious reconstruction
Maybe a chat with Mal Pitman (Malpit in South Aus (ex Pitman's Yamaha) or try PMing MadBill (xs1100madbill) in Germany for some expert ideas and of course Miti.
These blokes have a wealth of knowledge about the XS1100's workings
Could be worth some research before diving in...
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i use needle nose pliers to put those
clips on and off the pistons, but as steptoe states
make sure it seats properly.
glad your getting it sorted.
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Its not the putting them in im concerned about, its getting them off the old ones! hmm my dollar store pliers and screwdrivers, my smallest allen keys and a paperclip have thus far not worked. Nicely jammed in there. Will bring some real tools home from work tonight, im sure i could do it with these, but there was other tinkering to be done, so i let that slide (limited the cursing a bit too lol) expecting the barrels on in the next night or 2, with a healthy serving of luck, will be running this weekend coming.
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Mwahahahaha Its Alive, Its ALIVE!!!
way later than i was hoping for, but tracked down some circlips, made some gaskets, bolted her together and she is alive and running well, woohooo! Few issues to sort out, mostly electrical. And a few oil leaks that are quite concerning, such as the cam plug seal and clutch cover (which i did not make the gasket for, that one was factory)
I will get y photos together and post the journey in a new post soon.
For those interested, the head gasket is 0.5mm thick aluminium sheet bought from bunnings, $13 is enough to make 4 gaskets but smallest sheet they had. Make a cardboard gasket, transfer to aluminium, cut out, bake in the oven for an hour at 250 while the wife is out shopping and assemble while warm. Has never failed me yet. And when you take it apart you can re-do the oven step and use the same gasket again. I am sure this will open me to a string of folks saying that just wont do, but i have used this method running up to 14:1 compression without a hitch, on cars bikes and boats. It works for me, if you don't like it, don't try it. If you do, hey, stick one on your lawnmower if you aren't sure!
Sorry that probably was not necessary, there never seems to be any flaming on this forum, everyone is pals. Just so used to other forums on the net.
Most of the other gaskets were made with oil jointing paper (proper gasket paper from the auto shop) or made from kids project paper, 74cents from the newsagent for a sheet big enough to do the whole engine. I bought two sheets, now i have a spare gasket set, or templates.
There are printable gasket templates on the UK forums by the way, if you prefer to cut out a paper template, put it on gasket paper, then cut that out. I just put the paper on the part wanting a gasket and tap one out with my gasket making hammer.
All in the other post when i get to it, don't hold your breaths, but it will be coming soon to a computer screen near you. Cheers all for the tips, fountain of knowledge in here. Now she is running I will start on the 1288cc big bore kit, got given some pistons that will do the trick. More on that soon too, will probably need some input with that project too.
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You'll have more compression with the 0.5mm head gasket too, stock ones are 1mm thick, some academics would tell you that copper or aluminum head gaskets will always weep some oil no matter what, and you'll need to slot the cam sprockets and dial out that 0.5mm of slack from the cam timing, also they'll tell you that the valves will likely now hit the pistons when it all gets hot enough and you'll blow the engine to pieces.. For the case gaskets I found that the red silicon gasket stuff in a tube works good with zero leaks for the clutch cover and cam cover on mine, including around the rubber half-moon thingy
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it's called "Loctite Master Gasket",, designed for machined metal to metal faces with discrepancy's/gaps of no bigger than 1.5mm,, also any excess squeezed into the motor is absorbed by the oil,, it doesn't dry and break off like silastic and get stuck in oil galleries,, have used it for years, works great
great news for the "Phoenix",, finally back in the air,, ;),,what did you use to cut such a fine line in aluminium,, obviously wasn't a jigsaw
as for the angst for angst sake,, I think there is none, AND DOESN'T BELONG HERE cause we know we're not rocket scientists, just fella's having a go, and will listen to any one with a solution or idea, IMHO it's pretty simple, like you say, don't like it, don't try it
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Thanks for the replies guys! Yep, aware of the extra compression (bonus!) with the thinner gasket, layering 2 of them fixes that, but for now i am just getting hold of a smaller carbide bit to slot the cam sprockets out, though the difference in timing is not going to cause any big issues for a road bike, i just like the tinkering. As far as valves hitting pistons, miles off (ok, millimetres) lots of clearance there. And a good spray with Hylomar or a similar gasket sealant suitable for heads stops the oil weepage issues. Metallic silver paint works for the oldschool fellas out there too.
Good advice with the gasket goo, i will order some in today and give it a shot, thanks! some of those cases are a bugger of a shape to make gaskets for!
For putting nice cuts in the aluminium, i use the wife's good sharp kitchen scissors for the most part, metal snips for some tricky spots, and for the the bolt holes i use some normal hollow punches on a wooden board. The holes for the cylinders were a tad different. I loosely bolt and clamp the gasket to the spare set of jugs i have on my bench, the take a VERY sharp non-serrated knife and cut in a smooth sawing motion around the edge keeping the knife against the inside of the bore. Works beautifully, just need to make sure the gasket cannot move while doing so. If the jugs were still on the bike, i would still use this method, only with a rag in the cylinder just in case, though with this method there are no shavings at all to worry about.
In the past i have also cut them out with scissors, and also use a very sharp scribe in a normal circle drawing compass, just scribe over the same line over and over and over til it cuts through. Slow but effective.
Many ways to skin a cat, someone out there probably has access to a nice cnc, water jet or laser cutter and could pump these out in any thickness or material desired. Unfortunately i do not, i just send the wife shopping and use the kitchen scissors, carving knife, knife sharpener and the oven at the end to anneal them. Works for me :D
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:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
A comedy of errors my dear bike, oh me oh my. engine is in parts again. It turns out the original camchain that was still in there, not up to the job after all this time. Snap. CLunk. Bang. Few bent valves, no huge dramas, just mighty inconvenient. Keeping up with taking a photo every now and then, *sigh* will post up the saga in a new one when all said and done. An update on the head gasket though, sealing beautifully still, after several heat cycles and being removed and reinstalled twice. Now to TRY to work out what i will do for valves and get her alive again... would be nice if she ran long enough for me to mock up the spare turbo i have here and the barrels i had made... neither any use when the top end fails. Everything on my workbench now, valves out, going to try to find a valve that will fit (need 2 exhaust valves, all others ok) and if i can match some up im in business... anyone out there have spares they want to sell?!?!
Still, was great riding while she was, every time i roll out of my driveway and ease into the throttle the rear wheel would just spin up and slide out a bit, what a hoot.
In the meantime while i am parts hunting yet again, i took a hacksaw to the frame, got creative with the headlight guages and indicators and doing some minor rewiring. For those who saw the original condition of this beast... well, not the bargain i thought it was at the time, it would have been quicker and cheaper for me to start with a box of bits! Have too much energy and time and love invested in this thing now to give up on her, she will get there. Without tempting fate too much, after the top is sorted, not too much to go wrong, have spare crankcase and gears etc... lol lets wait and see. Just an update, basicly riding briefly, long time not riding, riding briefly again, now not riding again lol
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Hows the progress?
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Yes No doubt a progress update would be cool! If he has not responded in over 2 years I doubt he will, but I have taken a few hiatus over the years as well so he very well may respond. I for one certainly hope so.