XS1100 AUSTRALIA
XS1100 Topics => Workshop => Topic started by: dgp0268 on May 09, 2015, 08:58:18 AM
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I rebuilt my engine and now have a engine noise that sounds like a noisy lifter.
The noise appears to come from the exhaust valve on cylinder 1 , but can't be absolutely certain.
I have set the valve clearances, and checked them over and over, they are spot on.
I removed the cams buckets, then holding the valves up with compressed air, removed and checked the valve springs. All good, no broken springs, buckets move freely.
I then removed the head, no marks on pistons, valves move in slides freely.
Reassembled and knock still there.
Noise does not change with spark lead off. Does not change under load.
Have done 200km on bike since rebuild, goes awesome, but for noise.
Bike has wisco 1200 kit, new bearings, head serviced.
Is a 81 RH.
Is the noise valve slap, is that possible , but not bend a valve?
Are the wisco pistons to high.
Does the 81,82 XS have larger valves than the 78. Does the 78 have higher valve lift?
This noise is really doing my head in, 98% sure it's not big end knock. But I am wrong more than 2% of the time.
Plastic gauged the clearances on assembly and where on the looser ends of the acceptable tollerances .
Help needed.
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It would be nice to somehow hear a soundbyte of the noise your describing. Maybe post a you tube vid with a link to it on here.
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Trying to load to utube , have slow net. Can see on my Facebook page. Daniel Pike at Wollar NSW. Appreciate any opinions. Thanks
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Not a facebook user sorry...... :-[ keep trying on the you tube. :P
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Not something dead simple like a leaky exhaust gasket making a ticking sound?
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A carby out of sync?
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Good call Steve.......certainly worth checking......even replace the exhaust gaskets just for the hell of it........ at a couple of dollars a pop.
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Would the noise be there with the plug lead of if it was carby sync or exhaust. I ran the bike with the pipe of number 1 cylinder today, to try hear if it was the exhaust valve, but without pipe to noisy to hear anything. Think I damaged my hearing. But with pipe of 1 and plug out , running on 3 cylinders , noise still audible and sounding to be from number 1 cam area? Will look again at cam lobes and bucket ?.
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Check the plugs are in the end of the camshafts while your there .
Here s a previous discussion regarding the cam plugs.
http://xs1100.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=2005.0 (http://xs1100.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=2005.0)
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Sorry, that was a question not a statement, would the noise be there with lead off?
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So were the valve shims within book tolerances or outside of ?
Is there a piston whose gudgeon pin was a little tight or different fitting to the others when installing the new pistons?
Did you install a new cam chain in the rebuild. If not....how much adjustment is left on the adjuster.
Have you done a carb synch and set timing ?
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Pikey, I'd say the noise would remain with the lead pulled off, though it would quieten down a fair bit. Also, if it was a bearing starting to go, it would also be less pronounced (in the early stages) by removing combustion from the equation reducing the load on the bearing.
Has the noise been there from the initial fire up, or has it reared it ugly head since?
A compression test would be a quick (easy) way to eliminate bent or stuck valves from the equation, too.
I've also heard a blown head gasket make some weird noises as well.
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Valve shims all within range, gudgeon pins good as far as I remember. Can the barrels be removed with engine in frame?Am shit scared I put a rod on back the front but is unlikely. Balanced carbs spot on I believe. New cam chain, had a problem with tensioner but cut a new thread for locking bolt and is good now. Timing non adjustable but spot on. Vac advance connected correctly and working .
Noise there from initial start up.
Someone said it sounded like a head gasket but I just can't hear it like that. Took the head off and no sign of anything, put head back on , used same gasket, with a thin as smear of locktight gasket sealant. Made no difference to noise at all.
Actually did bend a valve through all this by stupidly putting ex and in cams ass around. New at once was bent, straigtned in pedestal drill and dial gauge indicator. Fixed perfect.
I know this all sounds as dodgy as, but really is all good. Well obviously sonthing no good.
Some thing I worked out this weekend --
*Noise deffently goes away when motor warmed right up.
*The clearances on exhaust valve 2 seems to not be paralle, if that makes sence? Removed shim and looks flat, replaced it anyway with another, was nothing under shim causing it to sit up on one side, can only think cam is verry slightly bent? Or worn uneven? Is maybe 0.01 to 0.02 mm difference from one side if shim to other.
Has anyone got some cams from a 78 model they want to trade. Would like to try them, apparently that model has more lift ?. I have got a complete kick start mechanism or bearing sets, also a set of jugs and pistons.
Could trade sonthing, or cash?
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Link to YouTube video of engine noise.
https://youtu.be/SP_lGRJDw6U
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Mmmm........the no1 ex does seem like the tapping issue your describing. Is there any chance you have mixed up the cam buckets when reassembling ? From the new information that you say it goes away when warmed up and the slightly out of horizontal gap between the cam shim and lobe.........
Maybe try and recall if there may of been a mix up of parts from one valve setup to the next.
You may just need to changeover buckets due to wear tolerances.
PS.... good vid...certainly helps with description of issue.
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Mixed the buckets up for sure, kept valves in order , and had the head and valves professionaly serviced. But failed to keep buckets in order. Surely the bore the buckets run in is perpendicular to the cam? And hence any bucket in any hole should maintain a horizontal gap. But could non wear matched buckets and bores create such a noise? I have cheched that all buckets move freely , and removed each one and checked for score or wear marks.
I will swap the buckets from one side of engine to other and see if noise moves.
Thanks
p.s Noise does not alter at all with lead of , or even with plug removed.
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The uneveness with the cam lobe and shim would create an off centre pressure point when depressing the valve.....if its not corrected now it will create worse wear as time goes by.....
Is there a chance the bent valve damaged the valve guide?
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The bent valve was on number 4 exhaust , uneven clearance on 2EX, noise sounds from 1EX.
Yes , I see the uneven gap will be placing uneven pressure. It causes the bucket to rotate at about 40 rpm.
I can only think I have a bent cam, will pull the cams and bucket s and inspect. The cam must be putting pressure on the cam bearing caps if bent? Would need a decent bend to lift a lobe 0.01 mm on one edge? Perhaps I plastic gauge cam caps? .
How to see if cam bent?
I am wanting to replace cams .
Can cams in a XS be ground ?
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neat vid, that's a hard-out clatter alright at higher revs, wicked, got to be the valvetrain surely, about the buckets i've swapped them all over the place, from memory i got rid of a clack by swapping buckets around(wasn't as hard-out as that clack though) The cams, find a proper cam engineering outfit they'll do anything, no prob to weld on extra lift etc... but not even worth it unless real keen. as for 78' cams nah they've got LESS lift on the EX and same lift as 80' on IN but more duration on both, they're peaky compared to 80' cams, 80' cams are improved -got better road manners but yeah the 78' cams can howl along..
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You could try posting on here for anyone that may have a spare camshaft they can either loan or sell to you to help solve your problem.
There s nothing easier to fault find than to have replacement parts to compare with.
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The uneven clearance issue could be caused by the shim being badly machined instead of being replaced. I know it sounds dodgy, but I have heard of some shops doing it to get the clearances correct.
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Uneven shim is a good call, I myself tried to take one down on linisher be for I got new set in mail , dam there hard. Linishing with 240 grit belt on and off for a bit took way more of my fingers than the shim . Was tempted to give the nine inch a run on it..
But I have had a couple of difrent shims in that spot.
I realized whils thinking on it today that I have replaced that shim 3 times, each time needing a slightly thicker shim. Could that be a bent cam straightening with use?
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Another area to check would be the valve seat . As the head was done by other people it would nt hurt to check their work including the seal at the valve and seat by pouring petrol in the inlet and exhaust ports.
That noise also sounds like the valve is hammering a loose seat .
Would it be possible to remove the top cover and with the bike idling....try to determine if the noise is happening on the depression of the valve or the release? Needless to say....don t rev oil all over the place.
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Any progress on the engine noise.....i hate being left in suspenders :P
Opps.....suspense ;)
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Do you have access to lathe? Put the cam between centres and check for straightness by dial indicator.
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take the top off and have a captain cook, easiest way, check your clearances yes,,,, take the plugs out too, will make it easier to turn
you,ll need a good chunk of emery paper to take any of that metal off the shims,,,, they,re made of the same steel as ferarri,s use
but also check the cam caps have the right tension on them,, that is a bloody loud tick,,
while your there check the cam sprocket bolts are tight, thats not the tick but while your there,, just to be sure to be sure as Ev says
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Just to add to what steptoe was saying about sprocket bolts being tight i had one come loose once and the head of the bolt was hitting the cam chain tunnel, youll see if it leaves a mark where its hitting
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Took the cams out . Took all buckets out. May of been a slither of steel under a shim, maybe created when a shim may of been not seated properly when engine rotated over and cam clicked shim into position. Not sure.
Thinking the contamination under shim caused noise.
Washed everything up. Measured cam up with a dial gauge indicator, and cam sitting in valve caps secured to equal spacers secured to flat surface( drill press table). Rotated cam and seemed to have no run out.
Swapped bucket from noise end of cam with one from opposite end. Reassembled and reset clearances so there spot on. Noise seems way less and goes away when engine warmed up.
I think there was the valve shim noise from number two exhaust and a piston slap from number one piston. The two sounding simultaneously making it hard to diagnose.
Now I just have the piston slap when cold ? .
Will take another video and post. Maybe noise is still there and I am just in denial.
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certainly was a drastic noise, and I've certainly never heard anything like it. Your contamination under the shim is a good scenario for uneven shim gap and you could probably imagine the shim flapping around in there coz there was no oil film to stick it down.