XS1100 AUSTRALIA
XS1100 Topics => Workshop => Topic started by: Aussiexs11 on July 30, 2011, 10:35:38 AM
-
Well,
heres an epic and hopefully not too expensive tale.
I was heading out for a 3 day unscheduled adventure prior to starting a new job, loaded the bike (minimally -1 change of clothes) and fuelled up and pointed west to the warm(or so I thought.)
Left Lithgow with thermals well fitted, headed to orange (even colder!) and as I came into Orange under decelleration head a very unusal "clunk, clunk" from the drivetrain.
Kept riding wondering what the??
Got into Orange into city trafic back through gears and under decel /slight accel the clunk got a little worse then stopped.
Im now wondering what has happened. So I stopped, checked rear wheel, looked for any major issues, saw none. mmmm so I kept moving wondering. Anyway all was good heading to Molong, then under accelleration very momentarily I felt something akin to when a chain slips on a push bike on worn cogs. Now major mmmm.
So I stopped in Molong and checked middle drive oil /final drive oil, read wheel movement etc, no smells, no discolouration , no movement in wheel.
I decided to head back to orange . No further adventure travelling yet.
It clunked and "slipped" once on way back.
Now my sister lives in Orange so I stopped at hers and did all checks again, then bravely (or stupidly) decided that I would head back to Lithgow to fully investigate.well, as Murphy dictates, 30klm outof Orange in the sleet and approaching dark, as I accellerated up a rise, the engine kept reving and the drive stopped but with an awful clunk /rotating sound. I pulled in clutch and noise stopped (a new clutch by the way) and the bike changed back through the gears to allow me to find neutral. Now the network kicks in and I call a mate in sydney whos father in law lives in orange comes to the rescue and about an hour (in the sleet) later picks me up and transports me and bike back to Orange.
Now the bike is back in Lithgow and I have to diagnose issue.
I think its a broken middle drive (and thankfully I have a spare), but its now I throw this open to all for some thought- what has happened. Im thinking everything from a primary gear, to middle drive to coupling of middle /shaft. I have it with a good friend and yamaha mechanic to open up, so I will find the issue but let me know what you guys think.I will keep you all advised. I may even need to call on someones stock of parts if its a really big issue.
So my adventure closed, but bloody hell, I think it now begins.
-
1)worn out spline(s) on drive shaft?
2) worn out spline from final drive to back wheel?
what a s#$t way to spend your between job brreak ......and how K'n cold was it?
If I can help at all you've got my number.
-
I'll hazard a guess at the middle drive gearbox. That's what I'd imagine it would sound like as it failed.
-
I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong....But, the hardend gears in middle drive box generally wont just wear out and fail without some warning signs developing over an extended period of time, such as metal glitter in your used oil when you drop it for an oil change or exaggerated backlash rotating the back wheel back and forth during a routine check
On the other hand even though the drive shaft splines are hardened they are for some reason more prone to wear, and generally goes undetected as its one of those items that rarely get any attention.
A previous bike I owned had the spline worn down to resemble something more like the teeth on a circular saw and werent far off total failure when I had to go searching for a replacement.
And just my opinion but what you described is how the final total let go would unfold.
Whatever it turns out to be....its still a real dissapointment and a pain in the A
-
Mate,
if the worst comes along and it is the middle gear case then take it to someone who knows the rebuild process. An older yamaha dealer with an even older mechanic would be good (bellylaugh).
It needs some special tools and the correct measurements for shimming back up. I had mine rebuilt a few years ago and when it came back out of the Yamaha shop it sounded like it had a turbo installed, it whistled and whined that badly. I asked the mech to what tolerances he had reshimmed the splines and of course he said "WHAT SHIMS?"
If you need to go down that road get yourself the 'Yamaha Shaft Drive Service Manual', part number '1J7-28197-19' and take it with you to show the mech.
It's not a cheap fix at about $700 and if that's an issue you might consider a second hand one. Personally though, when it comes to essential moving parts I tend not to buy someone elses troubles.
My manual is available for loan to any member who needs it.
-
If it does turn out to be the middle gear and you want to rebuild it
PeteJW posted an excellent link in the last couple of posts in this topic below
http://xs1100.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=1030.0 (http://xs1100.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=1030.0)
-
Copy of that manual here:
http://www.ringler.us/xs1100/ShaftDriveManual.pdf
-
things I,d be looking at
#1 on the centre stand, in gear, grab the rear wheel, roll back and forward and see if you can make it clunk,, sitting beside it you may be able to locate the noise
#2 it,s obviously drive but which bit, starting from main clutch nut thru to diff, I'd start at the diff,, the middle box drive splines are enormous and aren't going to "strip", not with out some god-awful treatment, and the bearings arent going to cause slipping, they'll lock up, the flange bolts won't grip and slip,
#3 jonesy might be onto something, if those smaller splines haven't seen lube in a while
but the diff is full of large area finer splines, and being on the end of the power train it's last to get the big power,, but first to get smashed by back lash on de-cell,,and the wheel trying to change angles under heavy cornering,, where also a very worn bearing will have more influence to what stays in place and what moves around,
#4 seperate the drive shaft at the flange,, that will help, turn the middle box and listen,, redo the bolts up then put a rake handle or some thing more solid thru the rear wheel and turn the shaft, the prob should show itself
just my 5 cents worth
-
first thing I say thanks to all who offered thought, but I have the answer , discovered today when the swingarm/ drive was opened and removed.
The drive shaft (approx 10inches long) and the cup holder piece (dont know the names) are shagged, the splines srtipped totally.
How? They had been lubed but they failed.
mechanic says "never seen this before" but it happened.
So my next question - ANYONE GOT ANY BITS?? Please call me if you can help and let me know what you would want$$ wise. My mobile 0427 406003. Need them ASAP.
When I get the part numbers or better descriptions I will advise but mechanic says anyone who has had this area dissasembled will know what Im referring to.
So thanks for all the comment, but now Im on the hunt....
-
Plenty on EBay in the states.
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=xs1100+shaft&_sacat=See-All-Categories
Just make sure that they are happy to ship to Aus at a decent price before you buy.
Also, you could try Andreas on the XS11 USA site. He always has bikes to break. His prices are good and he is very fair on postage.
http://www.xs11.com/forum/member.php?u=42
I got my TCI from him and he was a pleasure to deal with.
-
The other place you might get one is for, Fungorous, he has broken several xs's.
Email- salvaged_cycles@yahoo.com.au
Carl Britton Phone- 0408 590 580
In Tassie, so postage should be OK too. Top bloke, very reliable.
-
I have got a bit of XS1100 stuff,i would have what you need send me a list of what you need to replace i am in Dandenong Vic
Regards Dale
-
Hey Grant, any chance of getting some photos of the flogged out bits?
-
I have a spare swingarm - and diff too I think
I need a fuel tank..... ;)
0404540617
Bryan
-
Guys,
I got the parts I needed locally, and I will take a few photos and post them, its an unusual problem apparently.
Thanks.
-
Aussi
is there a fuel tank available locally?
-
G'day Aussie,
just like to know if you have that bike back on the road yet? I'd like to know if the first indication of a problem " like a chain slipping a tooth" that you mentioned is gone.
I just replaced the entire drive from uni joint to wheel spline, as it showed signs of maybe going the way of yours did ( I have never seen this before either but then I have only seen inside two xs drive lines) but after riding I have noticed the occasional " slipping chain " feeling, no noises, no more xs backlash , so now I'm a bit more worried what I might find or rather how far I will need to go to find it.
Next job is to do the clutch and have a look around inside the cases for any signs of wear/damage. Clutch.
-
Hey Clutch
As mentioned earlier in another topic somewhere......I took your bike for a test ride when it was up for sale and thought that it had some clutch slip. so its probablt a good decision you made to look in that area. If it any consolation my clutch is slipping too but probably in tihe illega,l playing, speed zone.
Oh yeah by the way, that was chasing Grant on his XS after the repairs....he didnt complain about any sprocket slipping noises.
-
G'day Jonesy,
yeah I have noticed the clutch slip ( seems to come and go abit ) but this is a different feeling, there were no signs of metallic wear in either the eng oil o rmiddle gear case. My last xs had more than 200k on the clock but nowhere near the wear this one had in the driveline
I can't remember but can I remove the clutch side cover without dropping the eng oi when on the side standl?
I have the clutch plates but need to check if anything else is worn in that area.
Clutch.
-
Hey Clutch,
I'm pretty sure you can, just to be sure you could park it on an old fence paling or similar to get that extra lean but still not to much
-
Hey Clutch, I read your comments, believe me if you have the same problem you will hear it too, generally on the throttle off as you slow down, sounds clunky.
The problem is certainly fixed , with a new driveshaft and rear "universal block"fitted and I must say it feels bllody good and for the first time in a long time (marvelous how we get used to little issues), the bike responds immediately without any issues in the driveline.
It is running really well. And as Jonesy said- we went out for a little "play" and no issues. I put a new clutch in mine prior to all this as it was slipping too, and Im glad i changed it out. But remeber when you toughen up the top end /clutch /tune, then that extra power is going to highlight any old issues you have.
Good luck with it!!
PS- Clutch is the name of a US rock band- awesome -check em out all you rockers out there!
-
thanks Aussie,
Did another 300km's yesterday, did notice that "slip" a couple of times but really think it's in the gearbox/selector, seems to be only in top soon after selecting.
have noticed a "growling" vibration between 3500-4500, feels like a bearing.
2 1/2 hours after getting home I found the middle gear box was the warmest part of the engine, I know the oil is good and there was no metalics in the old oil, think I might replace it to be sure and narrow down this vibration.
I will have to check out this band, any band named after me can't be all that bad.
Clutch
-
Middle gearbox does get hot.
I had a similar problem and due to lack of flexability (old broken bugga) I did not track it down to the final problem but changing the uni joint back (swapped the rear from one of my other XS's) fixed the problem
-
G'day Xtian, I have just replaced the entire drive line from uni joint back due to exessive wear in all splnes ( it was all used parts so could have a bad brg but I had noticed the vibration before just not as bad) as I said only done only done limited kim's so far ( maybe 800 km's) ,I did do half of that 300 km's two up which added to the load. and had no clutch slip??
will keep you all posted as to what I find as I work through this.
Clutch
-
I had the rear wheel off mine ( new rear tyre/ switching back to 16") and decided while it was off, I'd have a good look at everything that moves in the swingarm area. Pulled the diff and extracted the driveshaft. Then went for broke and dropped the whole swingarm out to lube and reassemble the bearings in the pivots. I noticed that the rubber uni joint cover had oil sitting in the bottom of it, so further investigation of the middle drive seal is required there. The oil level is still where it was when I changed it some months ago so it's not likely to be a real drama.
The driveshaft, on the other hand is a bit of a worry. Since reading this thread, I'd been meaning to have a look at things in there, but haven't had the time to do it.
In the past, my maintenance for this thing was to pull it out occasionally (maybe every 3 years or so) and fill the diff flange socket with grease and plug it back in. This time, I cleaned all the old grease off it and inspected the splines and this is what I found.
(https://xs1100.com.au/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi950.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad349%2FEveready1100%2FXS11%2520Driveshaft%2520wear%2520Pics%2FDSCF0054-1.jpg&hash=47d980d67968b7e83b8f44bea033fc94e2d1c4e8)
Though not worn to the point of having sharp edges on the teeth, there are visible steps in them
(https://xs1100.com.au/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi950.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad349%2FEveready1100%2FXS11%2520Driveshaft%2520wear%2520Pics%2FDSCF0052.jpg&hash=ff8fb6cef517ae101bd58b16bce1332c2faabc6c)
This looked fine when I pulled it out with grease covering the splines.
(https://xs1100.com.au/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi950.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad349%2FEveready1100%2FXS11%2520Driveshaft%2520wear%2520Pics%2FDSCF0051.jpg&hash=7fed77d3bf9d74dd300b7690e01abc731209f58f)
It's when you clean all the old grease off it that the wear becomes evident.
In its defence, this shaft has done a lot of klms (Bloody near 300,000) and considering it slides in and out a bit with each movement of the swingarm, it hasn't done a bad job over the years.
BTW - The socket that holds this end of the driveshaft had no visible wear in it, oddly enough. Must be made of a harder material.
-
Hey clutch,
How did you go with getting the clutch cover off without draining the oil? I've got a minor clutch slipping issue, and might need to do the same if it gets too regular.
-
Hey clutch,
How did you go with getting the clutch cover off without draining the oil? I've got a minor clutch slipping issue, and might need to do the same if it gets too regular.
it can be done without draing the oil jonesy,
ive done it that way before.
-
Thanks Pete,
Thought so but i just wanted to double check
-
Hey clutch,
How did you go with getting the clutch cover off without draining the oil? I've got a minor clutch slipping issue, and might need to do the same if it gets too regular.
yeah! no problem, think I used 3/4" board under the wheels and you can see the oil is just below that section when you get the cover off.
clutch.